Todd Lieman Talks Human About the Story of Our Humanity

If you’re so focused on legacy, you’re missing the point of legacy.
— Todd Lieman

Todd Lieman sits down to talk human to me about how the thing that bothers you about other people is the very thing that bothers you about yourself standing up for things that you believe, explaining to his son why bad things happen, understanding hate and finding compassion, learning from every situation, handling things in an authentic way, battling depression and darkness, emotional intelligence, expressing vulnerability, and living everyday according to your soul and your best practices.

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Our Conversation with Todd Lieman

Jeffrey Shiau: [0:20] Alright let’s go ahead and get started here. Todd, thank you so much for...we’re actually at my apartment right now, this is the first time I’ve been recording here.

Todd Lieman: [0:31] I feel like I’m breaking ground it’s pretty awesome, thanks for having me.

Jeffrey Shiau: [0:36] Absolutely and quick backstory, you and I literally met back in person probably less than two weeks ago...

Todd Lieman: [0:44] Yeah, yeah probably two, maybe a week ago today or two weeks ago today? Yeah.

Jeffrey Shiau: [0:50] Yeah and before that we did not know each other except Linkedin.

Todd Lieman: [0:56] Except not at all.

Jeffrey Shiau: [0:57] Yeah.

[0:58] [Laughter]

Jeffrey Shiau: [0:59] Exactly, that’s awesome, okay, so we’re going to go ahead and get started here and like every other episode, I start with the same question and that’s, what about humans strikes you the most?

Todd Lieman: [1:15] You know it’s funny because I listen to these podcasts so I knew you were going to ask that, I prepared and I got nothing....You know I think what really strikes me about humans is their stories. I think that and I’ve been thinking about this a lot more recently, is we are all so, so unique. We all have...we can all experience the exact same thing but have such different feeling and reactions to it and responses to it and listening and talking to resiliency, pain and vulnerability and fear and all the things that we feel and we sometimes share and sometimes afraid to share or...I’s’s hard to explain, it’s the humanity of humans that really strikes me. I’m moved by the good, the bad and the ugly. I’m always struck by the amazing things that people do, the resiliency that they have, the...I think I mentioned this to you when we first met, but you know the singer songwriter that’s on stage in an empty room, belting out his or hers original tunes because that’s the direction that the soul is pulling, that that humanity inside that person is pulling them and then there will be people talking at that show or the person whose singing and it boggles my mind how they could possibly do that, because there’s this artist doing this thing. It’s just the total experience of it, right?

I...I...Someone asked me the other day to describe myself and I said I was a super fan of humans and humanity and I instantly put that on my social profiles because I thought that was kind of cool. I think that’s what I am, I think that what strikes me the most about them, is just them. I just love humans and I love trying to figure out..not trying to figure but just learning about them and the stories and what drives them and how we sometimes get so addicted to our stories that they become us and we can’t change out of it, when others are just so capable of changing their story like it’s a shirt and just becoming something else and reinventing themselves. I’m just moved by them, I just really am moved by them and frankly it’s what caused me to reach out to you, I just thought Talk Human To Me was the coolest name ever and I love the word human, I love what it...what it...for me, what it creates in my head. Michael Franti has ‘human’ on his guitar strap and I just love that, it just takes us all down to the same level. It allows us at a place to start a conversation and I love conversations.

Jeffrey Shiau: [4:29] When you’re talking about this reign of humanity and how you express how you love those observations, are you talking about a love for both the things that make you feel good inside and the things that make you feel bad inside? Or is it just one thing? What are you talking about?

Todd Lieman: [5:00] Yeah you know...that’s a great question because I have a very visceral reaction to things, I know where my buttons are, you know, some might call them my wounds but whatever. So when there’s certain bad things that happen or there’s a certain way people in politics talk or whatever, I can feel myself shrivel up into a ball and just never leave the house because it’s hitting some nerve. I’m learning to not mind that as much because it’s allowing me to understand myself better. You know they often say and I’m going to butcher this because I tried to write this the other day and I got it wrong but you know the thing that bothers you the most about someone else is the thing that bothers you the most about yourself. And so if someone is doing something and it drives you crazy, there’s a good chance that you do the same thing and so it’s just you’re looking at a mirror and so the reason why it’s driving you nuts is because you know you do it too.

So you know I often say, ‘I can’t stand judgement and dah dah dah dah’ but you know it makes me catch myself when I am judging someone else because I will and I don’t want to because like I said everyone has got their thing and it’s not that it’s completely hands off, I’m going to stand up for the things I believe in and I’ll fight for the things I believe in, as appropriate for who I am and what I do and all of that but I think it’s important to think about all of that. This morning, a guy drove his car in Times Square and drove over a bunch of people on the sidewalk, I don’t know anything about who that person is...

Jeffrey Shiau: [6:43] In New York.

Todd Lieman: [6:44] In New York. I don’t know anything about the details, I saw the headline before coming in here. It’s horrible, I want to know the stories of everyone involved, I really do, even the driver. I want to know what the thinking was because I think there are parts of us in everybody and there’s a lot of stuff that happened today that’s really...I woke up to some really hard headlines, you know, and that’s humanity. The older I get the less I understand the really bad things, I don’t understand hate.

Jeffrey Shiau: [7:27] What do you mean when you say you don’t understand?

Todd Lieman: [7:30] I don’t understand how people can have so much hate that they want to literally destroy each other, in the name of something, for some philosophy or whether it’s religion or just a belief of any kind. I just...I can’t explain it to my son and the older I get the less I try explaining...

Jeffrey Shiau: [7:52] Have you tried explaining it?

Todd Lieman: [7:54] Well you know he’s asked to talk explain why bad things happen and why a person does a certain things or why someone acts a certain way and all I can say to that is we don’t know what that person's history was, we don’t know what happened to that person as a child, that caused him or her to maybe get a little sideways and it’s hard to totally judge. It’s great to’s important to feel compassion for anybody that’s wronged but it’s also...I just think humans at their core want to...they’re not born bad, you know? I think that experiences change people and I think it’s important to...again I understanding is really important. So again something else that happened today, the founder of Fox News passed away and he was by all accounts not a lovely person. I shouldn’t say by all accounts, he was awful to women but there are a lot of people’s careers he made and I read things that he did, good things for other people but social media is just blowing up for praise that he’s dead and I have an issue with that, I really do. He hurt a lot of people and those people deserve to have their voices heard but I really have an issue with praising, cheering someone like that, that he has died. I don’t get that.

Jeffrey Shiau: [10:00] Did you always have this centered kind of compass within you that naturally tried to counterpoint or tried to...or never really...was always I guess, always felt conflicted when you saw conflict or when you saw hurt and pain and suffering. Has that been something with you your entire life? Did you grow up with a very steady family, surrounded by love all the time or is it because you actually came to understand pain and suffering very early in your life that has you so aware and empathetic to pain and suffering?

Todd Lieman: [10:56] I’ve always been pretty empathetic, pretty compassionate, pretty giving, always sort of wanting to run to help. There’s a character archetype of you know being a helper or even being a mediator where you are constantly trying to see multiple sides of a situation. I think it’s become more fined tuned as a parent because as my son has gotten older and you know he’s coming home and ‘so and so did such and such’ and ‘such and such’ a jerk’ and ‘this, this and this’ and ‘well let’s take a look at the whole picture here’, ‘well keep in mind your friend has been going through something kind of tough. So they are going react a little differently’. I think too that sometimes where I live people can get a little caught up in the minutia of ‘he said she said’ or ‘what did that person do’ it can sometimes get a little gossipy and at some point to kind of don’t want to deal with it anymore and everyone’s got their thing, everyone’s got their shit, everyone’s got their story, everyone came from something and it manifests itself in different ways that we don’t always understand and it’s gotten easier for me and far more healthy for me, when I hear things, to say, ‘Wow that’s really rough I understand why you are upset’ and ‘That sucks and you have every right and whatever’ but keep in mind we don’t have the full story of where this all came from so as opposed to pouring more gas on the flame which I have done in the past.

I mean I have definitely been an instigator in that. I remember telling a friend of mine how somebody was being super judgey of me about something and I was like, ‘I hate that because I’m not judgmental’ and he was like, ‘The fuck you aren’t’, I was like, ‘Whoa’. It was really eye opening for me but again that the same thing right? That person being judgmental bothered me a lot because I was something that bothered me a lot about myself. So I’ve I’ve just learned that there’s a lot to learn from every situation  and I know that I feel better when i handle things in a really, I think this is an overused word now, in a really authentic way that feels good to me. And typically if I fight fire with fire without really taking in a whole picture, I don’t feel good about it.

Jeffrey Shiau: [14:12] So kind of going back to the statement where you were saying a lot of the things that are really bothering you when you’ve observed them, you’ve begun to realize that actually might exist within me for me to be bothered by that. I have you ever been, I guess frightened by something that bothered you and then you were like ‘Holy shit, I’m empathizing with this because it’s probably a part of me as well?’

Todd Lieman: [14:42] Well not from far as a depression goes and where people are super sad and complaining about it, not complaining about it see that’s the whole judge-y but where they are talking about it a lot, I have a tendency to lose patience for it because I battle that myself and I feel like, ‘Well I’ve got it under control, so you should too.’ So I have such empathy for people that battle depression and darkness and whatever they want to call it because I know what that feels like and I am aware of it. Not constantly but it ebbs and flows. So in those instances, someone who is super narcissistic is really hard for me to deal with and it makes me ask other people, ‘Do you think I’m narcissistic?’ because I just can’t fathom that. So I do struggle with that but never like, ‘Wow that person’s so violent it bothers me and so wow I wonder if I have that violence inside me’ because I know that I don’t.

Jeffrey Shiau: [16:14] When you’re talking about these characteristics that you’re are observing within yourself and it seems like you have great conversation and dialog with you son. Is he a teenager, is he a...

Todd Lieman: [16:26] He’s an eleven year old thirty year old.

Jeffrey Shiau: [16:28] [Laughs] An eleven year thirty year old, that’s great. [Laughs] So I think when a lot of parents when they hear that you also talk and deal with depression, a lot of parents, especially new parents, feel that they have to be these super heroes. They are superheroes in the eyes of their kid. Has kind of talking about human emotion and that there are different wavelengths and that it’s natural to feel sad, it’s natural to feel happy, it’s natural to have both, is that a conversation that you have with your son?

Todd Lieman: [17:11] Absolutely and I’ve gotten better at it. Almost one hundred percent of the time, in the past, almost one hundred percent of the time when I’ve been angry with him it’s because he’s doing something I would have done and I was pissed off at myself that I’d either pass it along to him or he had it, whatever it was, and then I would go back and explain, ‘Hey dude, listen I know I snapped at you, let me explain why.’ So you know a lot of times those conversations result in me saying, ‘do you understand what I’m talking about?’ and his response is, ‘Yeah pass the ketchup’. You know like I’m blowing his mind a little bit and it’s like, ‘Enough already dad, enough with the deep talk’ and , ‘I get what you’re saying’ and then we’re good. A lot of the times we’ll have a conversation, I shouldn’t say conversation, I will talk to him totally one sided and I won’t know if he’s got it and then a year later or six months later something will come up and he’ll explain how he handled something and I’ll realize that he’s listening to it. So to me being my sons super hero means giving him a high emotional intelligence. He’s a good athlete but frankly he’s done that on his own. I played sports as a kid, I played sports through high school and then a little bit in college but I didn’t push it.

I kind of pushed him towards the arts when he was younger because i know how crazy the competitive environment is around sports but it was something that he wanted to do and so I support it. Hey if that’s your deal, I’ll go play catch with you whenever you want, I’ll shoot hoops with you whenever you want, I threw batting practice to his team the other day and I can barely lift my arm and I did hit one of his teammates badly, I beamed him right in the back. So to me being his super hero means preparing him as a good human, not having any kind of super strength or anything like that  and having the vulnerability to talk to him when I’m really down and having the strength to talk to him when he is really down and to be able to really pull out of him what’s going on without feeding him the answer. Because there are times when he’s really bummed and it’s like, ‘Tell me what’s going on?’, ‘Nothing’, ‘Tell me what’s going on?’, ‘Nothing’, ‘Tell me what’s going on?’ okay I’m going to leave it alone for a little bit and come back to it, ‘What’s going on?’, ‘Well here’s what happened’. It’s like great how do we want to talk through this and typically he’s had his feelings hurt about something, as kids will do and we will work together on how he wants to handle it. A lot of the times it’s like leave it alone and see what happens tomorrow and with boys you know, nothing, they kind of got a little rough with each other and it was over and the next day everything was fine.

Jeffrey Shiau: [20:37] When you see your son go through his life in day to day and you see these, like you mentioned before the maturity of a thirty year old in an eleven year old, when you see all this crap happening in the news and these projections of what is going to happen in the future but then you see your son. Is it within yourself, are you worried or is it  mostly like he’s going to be okay?

Todd Lieman: [21:09] Yes and yes. I think that, I think that I worry for...I have no idea what the world’s going to look like and that freaks me out but I also think he’s going to be okay because he is learning how to deal with difficult situations intelligently. He is learning how to think through things. He’s able to talk to and comfortably able to talk to a wide array of people from adults down to younger kindergartners and whatever he’s in fifth grade talking to first and kindergartners and whatever. So he’s got a good sense of humor, I think he’s going to be okay as long as he learns that he has the permission to do what’s right according to his soul and his internal compass, he’s going to be alright.  

I will support anything that he wants to do but I really want it to be in’s got to be his decisions and I want to help him do that and it’s a battle, right, because his best friend is his cell phone and he tells me what he’s interested in but he still spends more time on his phone than anything else and so I’ll say, ‘Look you’ve prioritized that thing as the most important thing in your life. More than me, your mom, the dog. You spend more time with that thing than anybody else or anything else and you’ve told me that your passions are, you know you want to go and do vlogs, you want to play baseball at a high level, you want to write music, I’ll support any of that the second you put that thing down and decide, ‘hey today’s the day I’m going to write a song’ I’ll help you write a song. ‘Today’s the day I want to start throwing a little harder’ Okay, ‘I wanna hit better’ let’s go hit BP [batting practice]. I’ll support whatever it is that you want to do but you...’ I’m not going to tell’s a battle at home, it’s a battle a lot of parents have, I am not going to tell him, ‘You have to put down your phone and hit baseballs’. He needs to learn how to prioritize that and so far it hasn’t caused a problem but when he gets to where school gets harder and harder and harder, if he spends as much time on his phone he’s going to have a tough time.

Jeffrey Shiau: [23:47] What does...when you’re saying it’s going to be okay, what is that? What does that look like?

Todd Lieman: [23:54] That’s a really good question. I think he’s going to be in a position where he’s able to handle a lot of different situations and so with out...and he’ll be doing something that he loves. I know that. So as long as he’s doing something that he loves and the rest will kind of work itself out.

Jeffrey Shiau: [24:36] So while we’ve been talking it seems  you have a very in tune compass of yourself, you have it in your whole life. You try and have an exercise that compass when you’re speaking with your son, with your colleagues and friends. Do you think this exercise in caring for yourself in being in tune with yourself and caring for others, why is it so important? Why is this something that although it kind of an optional variation of human behavior why is it more...

Todd Lieman: [25:23] Not for me.

Jeffrey Shiau: [25:24] Yeah but in general...

Todd Lieman: [25:27] Yeah but I don’t...that’s who I am and it’s been a really long, it's been a long struggle to accept that. You know I was talking to someone the other day on the phone and she says, ‘You’re just a big hippie’ and I thought that was really funny, you know, but at the same time I think at my core i think that’s exactly who I am. I think that if someone describes me as compassionate and authentic and funny and I mean I haven’t really had the opportunity, I’m not breaking down jokes here today. I think know and creative and caring, awesome you know I’m not the most financially astute guy in the world, I do okay for myself, I make it work and I think that’s what I mean by my son is going to be okay. I know I’m always going to be okay, you know, I live in a place where I’m surrounded by money and sometimes when you don’t have a pretty good handle on who you are and what your bring to the world, that can be pretty tough and at times it has been really tough and I’ve tired to be that guy and it’s just not me. I’ve spent a lot of years trying to mimic other people that I respected you know and said, ‘Oh that’s really what I want to do, I’m going to go try that, Oh that’s what I really want to do’. All while just forsaking the truth about who I am and you know this all sounds great and the truth is it’s probably pretty new for it being a more public persona for lack of a better word. You know I think that if you went back through my history there’s who knew me probably as a little standoffish, super sarcastic, always quick with a joke but someone that you didn’t get to know very well.  

And then over time you have fewer and fewer fucks to give and while I’m a big believer in the fact that a huge chunk of the depression that I’ve experienced over my life has been me not going in the direction of my soul and so it’s just a fight with myself that brings me down. The more I do on a day to day basis that is what I think is in the direction of my soul, the better I feel and literally for the last month that’s what I’ve done everyday, just woken up and like, ‘Okay today I’m going to do...I’m not going to fight myself, I’m not going to fight the direction’. It’s made a huge difference, it’s what made me reach out to you and be like, ‘Dude that’s the greatest name of a podcast of all time and if I were going to do a podcast, and I wanted to do a podcast, that’s what I would do, so good for you let’s meet.’ I wouldn’t have done that, you know, I was afraid, I would have been afraid that you wouldn’t respond, I would have been afraid that...whatever. I mean I’ve gone through huge periods of my life just in fear, afraid of saying the wrong thing, afraid of taking the wrong step, afraid of offending someone for saying what I really believed and at some point you're like, ‘Fuck, what am I doing like yeah life is short whatever’. I give lectures at USC where I was saying the exact...all the things that I really, really believed but I really wasn’t walking the walk and then last year I started walking the walk a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better and talking a little bit more about depression and coping to it a little bit more you know? I’m on the spectrum somewhere, it’s not like I walk around with a cloud over my head all the time, it just means that every once and awhile I’m walking around in the sunshine and I drop into a manhole, I’m like, ‘What the fuck happened? How did I get down here?’ And then now it’s, ‘Okay where am I not being true to myself and what is it that I need to do better? What are the conversations that I need to have that I’m not having? Let’s bring this back to center’, and work your way back to center.  

I know there are things that I need to do every single day to at least give myself a chance. I need to workout in some capacity, I need to write in some capacity, I need to meditate in some capacity. I need to have some level of accountability where I check in with somebody and I say, ‘Hey I did A, B, C’ and I need to set an intention every morning. And just be’s like my little SAMI,  sweat, what’s the ‘A’ one again?... accountability, meditate and intention. That doesn’t mean the day is going to be great, it just means that I have a good foundation for something to really start reacted to the day according to the way I want to live it.

Jeffrey Shiau: [30:49] Do you think your whole life and how you’ve had this deep sense of empathy, this deep sense of being in tuned with your own feelings and always kind of having a radar for others. Did that drive you to be more entrepreneurial or did becoming an entrepreneur and participating in more entrepreneurial activities almost helped you and hyper-activated your need to care and feel for your other human beings around you?

Todd Lieman: [31:36] I became entrepreneurial almost as a result of need and that fact that early on in my career, I really sucked at working for other people.

Jeffrey Shiau: [31:50] Why was that?

Todd Lieman: [31:51] Because I thought that I had all the answers and I thought that...I thought that building a career was the most important thing in the world and doing it fast and putting in my stupid number of hours a week meant that I was going to get promoted, promoted, promoted and then the world was my oyster. I went out on my own, you know the first time I was twenty-five, just quit my job and moved and wrote some business plans and actually got some funding and freaked out and went back and got called to go back to the company that I left and they offered me more money and a different job and I was like, ‘Okay yea cool.

Jeffrey Shiau: [32:41] What do you mean ‘freaked out’?

Todd Lieman: [32:42] I...I...again I am not a business guy and so to be responsible for the administration of the operations of a company, I’m just not that guy. So that’s part of what I would have had to do in starting my...starting that particular company and so being responsible for somebody else’s money as an investor I didn’t understand what it meant. I didn’t know that you could lose it and still be fine [Laughs] I didn’t know that that was the risk that they were taking. I didn’t know any of that stuff then and I don’t want to take other people’s money because of some of the things you just said, I couldn’t stomach the idea of losing somebody else’s money. I’ve had projects where I’m in production of something and the client went out of business and I had all of my colleagues and vendors that had been doing work for me and I paid them out of my pocket and I’m still paying some of that stuff off. I didn’t have to, the project died but I think, you know to a certain extent there’s a couple different kinds of entrepreneurs. There’s the sort extroverts that are sort of out there all the time and I’m in awe of a lot of those people and then there’s the introverts that do it behind the scenes and I’m probably the much more solo introvert kind of guy. I love working around other people, I really do, I love the energy of it because I can end up never seeing daylight if I’m not careful even though I know it’s the greatest medicine in the world. I think..I think the reason why I initially did it was maybe even out of pride, just...just out of gumption, and, ‘I can do this, I know everything’ and so out of a lack of knowledge.  

I liked it and I managed to make some money doing it and I managed I liked building things so even now if I’m working for or whatever, another company, if it’s a new division where you’re building something that’s all good, I like building things. Going into something where it’s all set, where you just fill in a role that’s been there for decades and now you just do it the same way, I couldn’t do it, you know? I sometimes say to friends of mine, ‘God, I wish I was born somewhere, where there was no ocean, where accounting or some other, and I’m not belittling accounting, just...where it was just...there was just number crunching all day, nine to five and then you went home and there was no email to look at and you went in the next day and on weekends you had your barbecues with your neighbors and that was just it, that was all you knew. But I like the buzz, I like building things, i like creating something that wasn’t there before, I like...I like coming up with an idea and I like writing something where someone goes, ‘Wow that’s really good’, because I do...I also need a pat on the back, I know that about myself and so...but that...that blank whiteboard, that blank canvas and it’s like, ‘Okay here’s what we’re trying to get to, go figure out how to get there’. The creative puzzle, I love. I love, so I think that entrepreneurship gives you more of an opportunity to do that outside of the lines than probably some of the tried and true.

Jeffrey Shiau: [36:46] And that’s led you to discover...

Todd Lieman: [36:51] More about myself.

Jeffrey Shiau: [36:52] More about yourself?

Todd Lieman: [36:53] Yeah. I think because in order to create well you need to come from a place of really deep authenticity. Especially as you’re writing, it needs to come from soul level shit or it doesn’t come out. It just doesn’t work, you know? You know, brands with purpose are really obvious as opposed to brands with fake purpose, you know, that: the more authentic I’ve become, the better my work has become.

Jeffrey Shiau: [37:25] When we actually met the first time, I had the assumption that you were an artist or a musician and you said, ‘Well I actually don’t play a musical instrument’... 

Todd Lieman: [37:36] I don’t.

Jeffrey Shiau: [37:37] And...

Todd Lieman: [37:38] But I think that’s a greatest compliment I could ever be given.

Jeffrey Shiau: [37:40] [Laughs] Right and’s just like when you’re talking as well and even when you were mentioning earlier about your son if [he] wanted to get into music you would teach him, right?

Todd Lieman: [37:55] I’d support him.

Jeffrey Shiau: [37:57] You’d support him.

Todd Lieman: [37:58] I can help him write songs, lyrics, I can’t help him write the music. I can read music but I can’t help him write it.

Jeffrey Shiau: [38:05] So it’s interesting that although you don’t necessarily have the technical daily practice of music...I just there’s this almost uncanny automatic connection with art and music to your life even though it’s not actively practiced, is that a... 

Todd Lieman: [38:33] Well so...but I...not to cut you off...

Jeffrey Shiau: [38:37] No, please.

Todd Lieman: [38:38] It’s a huge part of my day to day life. I don’t play it, I listen to it non stop, I read lyrics a lot. I listen to music all the time. It’s on in our house from in the morning when we wake up to when we go to sleep, you know, it’s on. Sonos system is on and there’s a wide variety. If my son has control of it, it’s hip hop and rap and a lot of stuff that I would think is super inappropriate but that has also allowed for some really rich conversations. My wife has some different likes and genres that I have and so it’s a massive part of our lives so no son plays a little bit, guitar, a little keyboard. I grew up playing the trumpet and a little piano. I’ve tried to play the guitar nine hundred and forty seven times and my hands are small and I get frustrated and then the calluses don’t happen  and whatever and so I stop which makes me believe that it’s something that I really don’t want to do. I love the fantasy of it, I love the romance of it but it’s not something I want badly enough to fight through. So I can’t teach him but I can certainly teach him to appreciate it.

Jeffrey Shiau: [40:09] Does it inform your writing?

Todd Lieman: [40:16] It informs my poetry. So some of the poetry I write reads much more like song lyrics than...which I mean lyrics are poems but I actually asked a few song writer friends of mine about some of the stuff I had written and I was like, ‘How do you write a song?’ and they’re like, ‘Your writing, you’re basically writing them in what you are doing’, so and I like that, I like feeling that I’m writing songs as opposed to just poems, I kind of dig that and you know I’ll find some hook to repeat throughout and whatever and so dig that, whether or not they’re ever recorded or anything, it doesn’t matter....It matters a little.

Jeffrey Shiau: [40:56] [Laughs]

Todd Lieman: [40:58] It’s kind of cool.

Jeffrey Shiau: [41:01] So we’re coming to the end here and I’m just thinking back to everything we’ve discussed, your relationship with your son, your experience and you're currently living experience with understanding depression, your viewpoints around how people come alive and how you can almost prevent yourself sometimes from coming alive. just thinking about everything we have just talked about...we’ve just discussed...

Todd Lieman: [41:40] And is there anything better than that though, when you’re having a conversation and you can see that point where they are really in there soul's path and they just light up and it’s like, ‘Dude you should see yourself right now’ and being in that energy is incredible! Right, and so experiencing it from across the table, like when we first met and you started talking about this. You know you talked about where you came from and shoulders are kind of down and you talked about this and your chest opens up and it’s like, ‘Holy cow...’ I mean it’s fucking incredible! No why wouldn’t we want to be around that all the time?

Jeffrey Shiau: [42:14] That...I love that you pointed out that behavior because most people that I’m talking to...half of people’s lives are spent at some kind of work place and whenever that discussion around work or...there shoulders are hunched...

Todd Lieman: [42:30] Yeah.

Jeffrey Shiau: [42:31] There’s always a *sighs* like a long sigh...

Todd Lieman: [42:34] Sure. 

Jeffrey Shiau: [42:35] Man I wish...we could go an hour on that one [Laughs] I do want to end this conversation though with a, and I think you’ve heard this on the podcast before. I end the discussion with the same question: ultimately what is the point of all of this?

Todd Lieman: [42:59] Right, and dude I don’t fucking know and I think that the point is to live everyday according to your soul and your best practices and you don’t decide what the point was, you know? I think that the people that you’ve touched and the people that you’ve come into contact with and hopefully the people that you’ve moved or helped or whatever, they’re the ones that decide what your point was. You know, I think if you’re so focused on legacy, you’re missing the point of legacy.


Why Did I Start This Podcast?

Equipment & Software:

Yeti Microphone & Ice Microphone by Blue Microphones

Audacity for Mac

WD My Passport Ultra 1 TB

Macbook Pro Retina 15inch Late 2013


Smile by Daniel Alan Gautreau

Tiny Bits by Felipe Adorno Vassao

Time & Reflection by Bjorn Lynne

Retro Video Game Hotseat by Bjorn Lynne