Jeremy Capdevielle sits down to talk human to me about having a complex relationship with his father, the tightrope for social issues that he’s walked along most of his life, his journey with complex identities being bi-racial, finding validation in his own skin, and his deep study of perception, especially illusions that can happen around knowing and not knowing.
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Our Conversation with Jeremy Capdevielle
00:00 Jeffrey Shiau: Sweet. Alright, we're gonna go ahead and get started here. Jeremy, I'm actually really, really... I don't if it's excited. I think I feel almost warm and inspired to have this conversation with you. We actually sparked this scheduling of this, because of something you mentioned to me the other day, during the dinner. Actually, this a shout out to Penelope Douglas. Your episode actually really, really connected with Jeremy, so we're gonna go ahead, and start it, and as you may know, every conversation I have with everybody on this show starts with the exact same question, and that is, what about humans strikes you the most?
01:06 Jeremy Capdevielle: [laughter] I love that I knew you were gonna ask the question. [laughter] I just love the question every time you ask it, and the first thing that came up for me, when I thought of that for myself, was the thing that strikes me most, is how much people actually know, and don't know they know. I think a lot of people that know me, know me as a trickster, and so on that just likes to play jokes, and I laugh a lot, and I like to trick people. And one reason why I feel like I'm able to do that, is 'cause I see where people think they don't know what's happening, and they do, and it's like play with the unknowing in a way that brings out knowing. I feel like that's one of my gifts, is to really draw out the knowing in people, and so what strikes me is just how much people know and don't realize they actually know.
02:17 Jeffrey Shiau: Sounds like maybe... I mean, did you grow up extremely, extremely curious about everything, just personally? Or did you grow up more having a strong curiosity of everyone around you?
02:37 Jeremy Capdevielle: A strong curiosity, personally, in terms of the internal world?
02:42 Jeffrey Shiau: Internally within yourself.
02:44 Jeremy Capdevielle: Yeah.
02:45 Jeffrey Shiau: And learning about yourself, and learning about what you know, or don't know, or did you already know, like, "I just wanna learn a lot, and I wanna explore other people and how to draw it out of them." Was that something very recent or did you know that was what you liked to do, being a trickster, getting other people to discover knowledge since you were young?
03:09 Jeremy Capdevielle: That feels multi-layered. I think part of it was I've always been really curious, loved adventuring, being out in nature, and part of my curiosity in people has been growing up, it was a safety thing.
03:28 Jeffrey Shiau: Safety?
03:29 Jeremy Capdevielle: Yeah, partly to be safe, meant I needed to really get people to understand who people were, so I could know how to be...
03:41 Jeffrey Shiau: Safe from what? Were you feeling... Did you want to be safe from being hurt yourself or what did you mean by safe?
03:49 Jeremy Capdevielle: Safe to fit in, to belong. I think...
03:54 Jeffrey Shiau: Were you... Did you always feel like you were on the outside or...
04:01 Jeremy Capdevielle: This is... It's funny, I'm 30 now, and I'm still learning so much about who I am and what this crazy world is. And one thing I recognize is aside from... And you and I talked about this awhile back, around identity stuff. I'm just like, "Oh, growing up Mexican and looking white." There's something about that where I'm like, "Oh, I've always been in between." I've always... I haven't really ever found my people, and I'm on a deep mission right now to find who my people are, and where I really connect. And I've always fit in, in different groups on the exterior, but haven't really ever felt really connected, and so much of that was my shaping and shifting who I am to really fit this idea to essentially fit in, when I actually didn't feel like I was fully there. Now, that's been my dominant life experience.
05:09 Jeffrey Shiau: Yeah, I mean... Well, I guess for those that are listening, here's what I see. Jeff Shell looking at Jeremy Capdevielle Wright, when he's describing like, "Oh, he grew up Mexican, but he looks white." I see a tall gentleman with brown hazel curls, right? And definitely a complexion that is, I would say, in the US at least, people would see that and go, "Oh, it's a white guy," right. So where did you grow up?
05:39 Jeremy Capdevielle: I grew up in Orange County.
05:40 Jeffrey Shiau: Orange County? Was your entire childhood in Orange County or where else did you spend time growing up?
05:49 Jeremy Capdevielle: I was born in LA, and then when I was six we moved to Orange County.
05:56 Jeffrey Shiau: Okay.
05:58 Jeremy Capdevielle: And spent family vacations on my mom's side going up to Oregon and hanging out with her family, and once or twice a year going down to Mexico and seeing family down there.
06:09 Jeffrey Shiau: So your father is Mexican?
06:10 Jeremy Capdevielle: Mmhmm.
06:11 Jeffrey Shiau: And when did he come to the US or was he also born in the US?
06:17 Jeremy Capdevielle: He came to the US when he was 18.
06:19 Jeffrey Shiau: 18?
06:20 Jeremy Capdevielle: Yeah.
06:22 Jeffrey Shiau: What was his story like in terms of immigrating here?
06:28 Jeremy Capdevielle: He came here when he was 18. He met my mom through a newspaper ad, and my mom was living with my aunt, her sister. And they randomly met my dad, it was a good fit, and after two years of living together, they ended up getting married.
06:51 Jeffrey Shiau: It was a personals ad, like one of those old school...
06:53 Jeremy Capdevielle: It was like, "Looking for a roommate."
06:56 Jeremy Capdevielle: It's like, "Looking for a roommate" and my dad answered it and at that time he was working for a janitorial company. And then him and my mom met, within a few years they started their own janitorial company, and then five years after that my dad followed his life long dream to work in the auto industry. And he eventually bought an auto body and paint shop. And so, it's definitely a story of pioneering, and he was a visionary in entrepreneurship and working the American dream.
07:39 Jeffrey Shiau: Did you ever get your hands in the shop as well and work on cars or...
07:43 Jeremy Capdevielle: No.
07:45 Jeremy Capdevielle: Went to work a couple of times but it was never my thing.
07:49 Jeffrey Shiau: They kicked you out right away like, "Okay, screw this kid." [laughter]
07:53 Jeremy Capdevielle: Yeah, I don't even think I had interest, yeah.
08:00 Jeffrey Shiau: What is your relationship with your parents? How would you describe it?
08:24 Jeremy Capdevielle: I don't have very short answers. [laughter] And I know you're not asking for one.
08:42 Jeremy Capdevielle: My relationship with them is wanting to be closer. I'm kinda like the one who's connected to everyone in the family, and I've kinda been the one who thinks he's responsible for family. And... So, with my dad... Actually, this is really interesting. I realized... I didn't learn Spanish until about five years ago. And I lived in Ecuador for two years and I was doing work down there, and I came back and my dad picked me up from the airport, and he picked up the phone when his sister called and he answered in Spanish. And I did this double take at him and I was just like... I saw a whole 'nother part of my dad I had never seen before.
09:44 Jeffrey Shiau: From language?
09:44 Jeremy Capdevielle: From language. And in that moment I just remember I got teary eyed and it was like, whoa, here's this person who raised me. Who always related to me in English and I didn't see this whole natural layer with personality until I can get the nuances of Spanish and the emotionality of the language. And still I talked to him last week, and still whenever we speak Spanish, it takes about five or ten minutes for him to push through of getting comfortable with speaking Spanish with me. And then once he does and when I push through it too, 'cause I can get uncomfortable with my Spanish. And once we push through it it's like, "Oh" he gets fluid in his Spanish and it's like, "Oh, here's my dad as a person." And I think our whole life, all the kids, my siblings struggled with my dad where it was hard to really feel his heart and his love. And he sounds really stern and had a really heavy accent, and just realizing it's like, "Oh, it's hard for him to... Still after living in the states for how long he has, to really express his emotionality and personality in English naturally."
11:04 Jeffrey Shiau: What are you thinking? Can you describe that moment in that car? Were you thinking towards the future like, "Oh, my gosh. I have all these things I wanna ask and explore now." Or was it a culmination of also remembering to the past? 'Cause you were around 25 years old at the time, when you had this first connection?
11:27 Jeremy Capdevielle: Yeah, I was 24.
11:30 Jeffrey Shiau: 24. So thinking back, the first 24 years of your life, those are definitely very important years I think any... For me, and definitely and I think any years all the way up to when you're 21, when you can have your first beer, at least in the US. It's an important time with your father and I think... I've had a lot of friends whose relationships with fathers are very complex, and I think adding that layer of language... Were you excited about what's ahead, but also continue to cherish what's behind?
12:29 Jeremy Capdevielle: I can't remember. All I really remember from that moment is just being really touched, and just being really touched, and just my world opening up in terms of how much people think they know of each other, and how much we don't know of each other, and how much language plays into that. And so, partly I was excited just because I'm a person who likes to... I'm passionate about connecting people and supporting people to really get each other, and understand each other. And so every time I get a glimpse into how humans function, I'm just like, "Oh, here's another access into this whole... Here's another touch point into this whole thing about humanity and what gets in our way from really getting each other." And so, partly I was excited about that. I'm always excited about those things.
13:26 Jeremy Capdevielle: And I'll have to say, too... But there is this whole complicated relationship with my father where it's like, "Oh, points of connection and closeness," and then some walls come up, and there's some pulling back from each other and illuminating moments, illuminating moments, and then, "Oh, can we actually be this close?" And that's kinda... I think we keep growing in this way and I definitely found myself back pedaling, especially more recently. Perhaps I'm just, as we're talking now, I'm like... Just thinking, perhaps it's just a lifelong journey of coming towards each other and pulling back and figuring out how we're doing this whole relationship thing.
14:19 Jeffrey Shiau: Feeling that you've always had that ability to connect with other people, at least outside of your family, with other human beings around you, being able to create joy and again, like you described, being a trickster and all those things, I'm trying to think of the connection, do you think there's a... Did you very intentionally, or very consciously through your life, just develop that purely out of what was just within you? Or did you develop that, because you were like, "You know what, in terms of what I have in the household, I don't see a model of that right now, but I wanna be a complete goof off outside and create those laughs and friendships"?
15:10 Jeremy Capdevielle: And so you're asking like, what shaped my inspiration and desire to support community and connection?
15:20 Jeffrey Shiau: Or just the way that you like to connect with other human beings now, 'cause clearly, there's a very complex, internal, familial relationship that you had. I'm trying to think what actually inspired you, or maybe influenced you, to be that joyful connector with the rest of the world. Was it a teacher maybe you had? Or...
15:55 Jeremy Capdevielle: Part of it just feels like my nature. I came into this world with wide eyes and excitement for life, and just light and joy. When I was really young, my father and I definitely had a really sweet relationship. We played a lot and I have memories of running across a field together, and just feel like we had a lot of sweetness between us.
16:26 Jeffrey Shiau: Was there also a close connection with your mother?
16:35 Jeremy Capdevielle: That one's a little more mysterious when I was younger. She was definitely the one that was taking me to practice for soccer games or baseball games, and she was showing up and doing all the things with the kids, and I have three other siblings. And so she...
16:53 Jeffrey Shiau: Are you the baby?
16:54 Jeremy Capdevielle: I'm the second.
16:55 Jeffrey Shiau: Second, and you have three brothers? Two?
16:58 Jeremy Capdevielle: An older brother, younger brother, younger sister.
17:01 Jeffrey Shiau: Okay, great.
17:01 Jeremy Capdevielle: Yeah. And so she was holding down the house and just really doing all the things to help shape us kids at home and in our lives.
17:11 Jeffrey Shiau: Make sure you were fed and stayed alive. [chuckle]
17:14 Jeremy Capdevielle: Yeah. In my older age, she's like... She continues to come out more as following her interests more, and she's super creative, really into spirituality and the human development stuff. And also just... She's an artist and loves to paint and dance, and she's a total weirdo, and so her and I could definitely... I go down there, and part of the work I do is I support people to have fun, and we have fun together. And so, I have a lot of fun with her, and she's super open to just having fun and doing new things.
17:52 Jeffrey Shiau: So, you have a relationship where you have your mother, your father, and your three siblings, and kinda the... It seems like you had a very interesting transition of play, of joy, and relationships at different stages of your life. Actually, maybe even through high school, I don't know if there's drastic changes there, but all these different experiences, when you see yourself today compared to Jeremy Capdevielle, sophomore in high school per say, what was the purpose of life for you? What did it mean to have a fulfilling life?
18:30 Jeremy Capdevielle: Back then?
18:32 Jeffrey Shiau: Now, and maybe as a high school kid.
18:39 Jeremy Capdevielle: It's so funny. People that see me now from my high school self, they're like, "Wow. Who is this person?"
18:49 Jeremy Capdevielle: High school, I... Personally, I've always had a kinda like... This internal nature of, if I'm gonna be successful, or if I'm gonna do well in school, it's gonna be on my terms. I didn't really have an internal drive going towards something, and didn't really have the mentorship and guidance to go towards something, and so it was more of a game I played with people. It was like, "I'll prove to you all that I can get the best grades here." Or, "I won't do it just 'cause I don't have to." Thank goodness I was part of a program that supported people who showed potential, and who had the smarts to go to college that if I wasn't in that program, I probably wouldn't have gone to college. I didn't have the support otherwise.
19:47 Jeremy Capdevielle: I would say that was kinda like an at risk territory of not getting passed, not being guided towards something that was important to me. And it wasn't until mid-college that I started opening up to, "Oh. Here's what's important to me." And, "I'm really excited about organizational psychology, and how groups function, and supporting and bringing more joy and connection and relationships." It's all about relationships to me, and I love nature. It wasn't 'til half-way through college that I really opened up in a different way.
20:25 Jeffrey Shiau: It's just so interesting how relationships became such a conscious desire and choice for you by college. Although you've had this kinda mysterious question mark around what type of relationship you had just within your own family. And actually, I've had this conversation with someone else as well. Whenever someone is biracial, coming to... A lot of the relationships they build, it comes more and more clear once they come to terms with their own identity.
21:10 Jeffrey Shiau: So, there was that clear moment of joy, sadness, reminiscing, but also future looking at that age of 24, that moment that you had with your father. I think it's really hard for me sometimes to understand and connect with people with two cultural backgrounds, with two very clear identities. What does that feel like actually, to grow up the majority of your life kinda just having this one identity, knowing that you have another identity behind you, and now just starting to embrace and learn about your two identities?
22:03 Jeremy Capdevielle: I'm in such an inquiry around this, and I think it's gonna keep evolving for me. Actually, the only identities that I identify with right now are Mexican and American. And knowing that I appear white and I have Irish ancestry, but I don't feel connected to that identity 'cause I don't really know what it means to be connected. I don't really know what it means to be Irish. And it wasn't actually until a couple months ago that I was really... People would ask me, they're like, "Oh, so how do you relate to your Mexican identity?" And I would tell people, "Oh, I'm half Mexican." And I didn't really know what that meant for me, and what it meant to actually be Mexican. And I would have friends that looked at me, and they're like... There was something there where they're like... A lot of my friends are really connected to the social justice world and racial justice, and kinda like this look of like, "Oh." I'm realizing that there was something they knew I hadn't figured it out yet. [laughter] And I'm in a deep... Coming into myself right now, in a new way.
23:22 Jeffrey Shiau: When you had those encounters with your friends, especially the social justice world, or some of the social justice warriors, right. Do you find yourself becoming defensive, or do you find them becoming suspicious? I'm trying to imagine that interaction when people first find out like, "Oh, I'm Mexican. Half Mexican, half American, and with Irish roots." Right?
23:54 Jeremy Capdevielle: Definitely. I think it's... I believe we all have the task to figure out who we are deeper down, and then also how the world perceives us, and how do we reconcile those things to bring more life into the world. And so I think, for me it's like, oh yeah, there are certain circles I go into, where if I lead with a Mexican identity people are gonna be like, "This is a white guy, look at all the privilege he had with coming in as this like tall, blonde, good looking white guy." And...
24:37 Jeffrey Shiau: Very good looking, right?
24:39 Jeremy Capdevielle: Very good looking white guy.
24:44 Jeremy Capdevielle: And so, yeah I think I wanna be sensitive to the reality that people have very different experiences and I have a lot of privilege, too. And...
24:58 Jeffrey Shiau: Are you appreciative of that privilege? Or are you almost like, "Man, I wish I didn't have that privilege." Or... It's so hard for me to grasp that concept of really trying to own your identity, but then do you feel guilt or do you feel like, "No, there's no one... No one should ever make me feel guilty about who I am," or is that everything that is... Are these all questions that you're trying to answer yourself right now?
25:36 Jeremy Capdevielle: I think that there's... In the realm of social justice I think that there can be a lot of finger pointing, of like, "Oh, this person has privilege and they need to recognize it and yada, yada, yada." I think it's really important to recognize the places that we have privilege. Personally it's... I relate to it in the sense of, I wanna be responsible with my privilege and use it for good, and it's wonderful to have privilege. I think recognizing where we all have privilege in different ways is something to be celebrated. And the dark side of it, is just not being aware of it, and not recognizing the implications of not recognizing the privilege.
26:36 Jeremy Capdevielle: I do wanna say that one thing that really came up a couple months ago was, I've had this, in terms of my Mexican identity, I've had this split between myself with my rational side and the side that wants to make sense of everything, and the side of myself that's really connected to the spirit world and the magic world. And a lot of my conversations as this identity piece started coming in where I recognized... I was like, "Oh." When I was young we had aunts coming over, and doing spells on our lawn, and throwing salt down, and cracking an egg to get rid of a spirit at the house. And it was like... And I'm like, "Wow," that stuff was happening and that's not a rational, very western kinda normal thing in America, I don't think. And I think I've struggled a long time with really believing in the magic and spirit world, and having friends who were like, especially as I get older, who think that stuff's like... Those are young beliefs or whatever reason there is to not see valid this other intuitive, sensing way of things.
28:04 Jeremy Capdevielle: And as I recognize that it's just part my identity to believe in magic, in the spirit realm, I'm like, "Oh, I don't have to fight people or even fight myself anymore." It can exist in this rational world and this stuff can exist here. It doesn't have to be something to argue about, it's just a different way of experiencing the world. And so I feel like now that I'm aware that this is a deep part of my identity, I can settle in it more and I feel less of a need to fight within myself and with other people. Where in the past I might've... I've definitely been a fighter or I'm wanting to argue perspectives and things, and I've realized it's just been a lot of internal identity things that have struggled within myself. And as I root into my identity I'm realizing it's like, "Oh, differences can exist a lot more peacefully," and I'm learning something there.
29:00 Jeffrey Shiau: Have you ever been approached or accused of, "Oh, you are a... " What's it called, what's that word? Acculturating my identity or you're an imposter, what are you doing? Don't do this. Because of... Again unfortunately, it's just one of those things when people see something at face value they'll immediately judge. When you were talking about just seeing all these social justice issues, a lot of things the way people immediately address something is usually very combative or defensive, right?
29:36 Jeremy Capdevielle: Yeah. I haven't had another... You mean, if I claimed I was Mexican and someone else being like, "You're not Mexican."
29:46 Jeffrey Shiau: Yeah. If you showed up at, let's say, a Dia de los Muertos, a very important holiday, let's say a parade or a dinner or something and you maybe brought some... Yeah, and you were saying that, "Yes, I'm participating in this as Mexican-American."
30:08 Jeremy Capdevielle: I haven't experienced that and personally I wouldn't feel comfortable really representing... Going to a Dia de los Muertos, I don't feel, at this point connected enough to that tradition. It's interesting, I was having a conversation with my brother a couple of months ago and as I was just in this inquiry around our Mexican identity. I was asking him questions and he was... And we were just having a wonderful connection around our Mexican identity. And he hadn't really thought about these things, and he was like, "Now that I think of it, at work, the people that I hang out with, actually we all look white, but the ones that I hang out with, we're all half-Mexican." And he's like, "Okay, there are two groups at work. And there are the white people and the ones who look white and who are Mexican." And so we had this conversation, it was just like... There were multiple things coming up and it was a lot of fun to play in this inquiry, and I was learning a lot from him, and the way he inquires into the world is really unique, too. And after the conversation... So my roommate is a very social justice oriented house, and it's a... I'd say, a very white household.
31:24 Jeffrey Shiau: Quick question actually.
31:25 Jeremy Capdevielle: Yeah.
31:26 Jeffrey Shiau: When you're saying social justice, 'cause actually, I have this obsession with interpretation and definition and perception, and because... Yeah there's the Merriam-Webster definition of social justice... What does social justice actually mean to you?
31:46 Jeremy Capdevielle: Yeah, as I say... As I used it in this context, when I say a social justice oriented house, I'm using the definition that... A specific definition for that context, which is people who are committed to an equitable world and one where the system, as government structures and society, gives everyone a fair shot, and gives everyone equal access to health and livelihood and things.
32:24 Jeffrey Shiau: Okay, cool.
32:25 Jeremy Capdevielle: And so my house is, in general, deeply committed in their own way to these things. So, as I was having the conversation with my brother, one of my roommates was... I feel like... I'm just like, "I was just checking," it's like, "Okay." If she knows I'm sharing the... One of my roommates was listening and I was sitting there thinking that... It's like, "Okay, I know I have all of this privilege as a white male, and... "
32:56 Jeffrey Shiau: What does she identify?
32:58 Jeremy Capdevielle: White.
33:00 Jeffrey Shiau: Oh, she's white? Female?
33:01 Jeremy Capdevielle: Female.
33:01 Jeffrey Shiau: Okay.
33:02 Jeremy Capdevielle: And in the back of my mind I was like, "Man, can I be talking about my Mexican identity in this white social justice oriented household, that has their own definition around privilege and responsibility and what that looks like." And after that conversation with my brother, the first thing that she said to me was, "And you know you're white, right?"
33:25 Jeffrey Shiau: How did that feel?
33:41 Jeremy Capdevielle: I didn't realize at the moment, I glossed over it, and I knew what she was saying, in terms of the privilege and whatever, whatever, and I was kinda quick to be like, "Yeah, I get it la la la la." And afterwards I was like, "Wow, that really sucked!" Even saying it now, there's something in there that really strikes me, and that shit hurt and I felt pissed off afterwards. I was just like, "Fuck that."
34:14 Jeffrey Shiau: Why did it hurt and why did it make you angry? What were the thoughts and processes that you're thinking about now?
34:25 Jeremy Capdevielle: One was this thought of, "For one, did you just miss the whole conversation I just was having. The depth of conversation that I was just experiencing with my brother, and this is what you pull out, is to wanna let me know that I have privilege because I'm white." And then I think... And then also as I reflect it's like "Who are we to tell someone what their identity is, and who they are?" And realizing that we just don't know the depths of people and their identities.
35:13 Jeffrey Shiau: Where are you in your journey right now with your identity?
35:22 Jeremy Capdevielle: I'm a eager learner and I'm wanting to connect with more people that have a mixed experience, and people that have a mixed experience that look white. And I've always loved conversations around difference and learning about who people are, and that's always been exciting to me. And so now it's taking on a whole other wave where I'm actually having my own experience of identifying with just who I am in the world. And so the conversations are becoming way more rich, and just getting in, just amazing, inspiring conversations with people, and it's been highly enriching. And I'm in this unknown zone of "Oh, who am I becoming right now?" and "Who am I?" And it's disorienting.
36:20 Jeffrey Shiau: How so?
36:48 Jeremy Capdevielle: Perhaps it's a lot easier... It's been a lot easier to spend my life adapting to other people, and it's more controlled, it's been safer and this way of... It's like, I know what kinda response I'll get if I bring this kind of thing forward. And so, disorienting in this way of doing the work to recognize my internal world, and my history, and my experience and how that relates to the external world, and how to really... Doing the work and putting the effort in and how to reconcile the inner world and outer world in a way that is unpredictable.
37:37 Jeffrey Shiau: Well, I for one am so excited for you. Your entire life you're bringing joy and laughs to everyone, just naturally as a kid, and I think right now you deserve joy and laughter within yourself as well as...
38:01 Jeffrey Shiau: You continue to discover and... Do you think the next... One of those next... Just like the... When you were 24 and you had that one pivotal moment in that car with your father, do you think another example pivotal moment is, you would be able to go to a Dia de Los Muertos festival, or some holiday that is traditionally Mexican-American and be able to feel, "I belong"?
38:41 Jeremy Capdevielle: I don't really have those end ideas or end goals in mind, it's more about... I'm excited to just keep exploring and keep learning and... Yeah, I'm really excited to take the journey as it comes and just being in the moment of it all, not knowing where that's gonna go. And I'm really excited how this exploration is gonna inform and strengthen my work, and one thing that comes up is, as you mentioned again, the conversation with my father, seeing more and more clear the ways that people miss each other, and the ways that I've missed people, and the ways that people miss each other, and how privilege and having perspectives that are more dominant make it that much easier to miss people. And I feel like there's something opening up in this realm while I've taught students, may have talked about these subjects, there's a personal experience coming in, that I'm recognizing them, it's like "Oh yeah," I'm really excited to pave more territory in this world in a way that people get each other a lot better. And that comes from my longing to be gotten, and also just seeing our communities and friendships, and places where people are deeply yearning to able to just be. [chuckle] I feel super excited about that.
40:34 Jeffrey Shiau: That's fantastic. And I think there might be a lot of other people who are biracial listening to this, and with the conversations that I've had with other biracial friends it's, a lot of that sentiment about feeling disjointed identity, about feeling validated, about either side, right. It's a constant exploration, so I really wanna thank you for one, really being open about this journey that you're currently on, the good and the bad, the difficult and the exciting. I think it's something that many, many people will really connect to and empathize with. Even if they're not biracial, I think just identity, the concept of identity is very universal. So yeah, I want to end our conversation. Again it's the same question I asked everybody and it's ultimately, what's the point of all this?
41:51 Jeremy Capdevielle: [chuckle] It's right off the bat it came up, just to enjoy the hell out of each other. [laughter] To just enjoy each other.